Would you put your dog down before using other training methods?
Question by : Would you put your dog down before using other training methods?
A friend of mine is a dog walker and told me one of her clients put her dog down because of a aggression problem.I knew this dog and it was a awesome dog. She only went to Purely Positive trainers and they all told her that her dog couldn’t be rehabilitated. What pissed me off is that these people would rather put a dog down then go to a trainer that uses corrections and has a better chance of getting rehabilitated. I’ve seen so many dogs that could have been helped but have been put down because the owners didn’t believe in corrections.
I use marker training to train my dogs but i know every dog is not the same and sometimes corrections can save a dogs life. Or even tools that so many people are against like the E-collar.
I see that there’s a lot of purely positive trainers here. so my question is
Would you guy’s put your dogs down before trying other method?
Im not trying to start sh;t. just wondering what people would do
I know the dog pretty well. He had dog aggression it really wasn’t that bad.
I know a lot of times aggression cant be fixed but it can be controlled
I know adding pain to a dog can make the problem way worse. The dog can associate the pain with the other dog. That’s why i don’t think using a pong collar for that kind of training is a good idea.
If you think the way to use a E-collar is to cause pain you are wrong.
@Anne no, im not a trainer but i have helped and fostered dogs with problems like this and if i knew that this dog was getting put down i would of offered to take the dog in. It seems like you missed the part were i say i use marker training to train my dogs. I never said compulsion is the only way to train a dog.
These people never gave compulsion a chance. they believe if the dog couldn’t be fix with positive methods it should be put down.
Just because someone has a piece of paper that says he/she is a certified trainer doesn’t mean he/she is worth a sh;t.
Yes, i said sometimes you can only control the problem and not fix it. I didn’t say that was the case with this dog.
You’re not getting what im talking about. You don’t have to control your dog with a tool or be on guard all the time. There’s many dogs that just don’t like other dogs but it can be trained that it’s not ok to attack other dogs. You can’t change a dogs temperament but you can show him/her the right way to act.
Yo
E-collars do not cause pain
http://youtu.be/Xx8hDS-apaY
http://youtu.be/TD4sjDbFs0E
You have np idea on how to use a e-collar if you think it’s only supose to cause pain.
@Anne no, im not a trainer but i have helped and fostered dogs with problems like this and if i knew that this dog was getting put down i would of offered to take the dog in. It seems like you missed the part were i say i use marker training to train my dogs. I never said compulsion is the only way to train a dog.
These people never gave compulsion a chance. they believe if the dog couldn’t be fix with positive methods it should be put down.
Just because someone has a piece of paper that says he/she is a certified trainer doesn’t mean he/she is worth a sh;t.
Yes, i said sometimes you can only control the problem and not fix it. I didn’t say that was the case with this dog.
You’re not getting what im talking about. You don’t have to control your dog with a tool or be on guard all the time. There’s many dogs that just don’t like other dogs but it can be trained that it’s not ok to attack other dogs. You can’t change a dogs temperament but you can show him/her the right way to act.
Yo
*****well i don’ know what happened to the rest of my post. I have put the e-collar on myself and no i didn’t feel pain. Do you know the proper way to find a dogs working level. Yes a dog needs to feel the stim but the stim doesn’t have to hurt. Go to Lou Castles website or Robin Macfarlane they are 2 of the best e-collar trainer in the world. They show the right way to find your dogs working level. Its a low level stim. Im sorry but you are the one that’s wrong. You really have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes e-collars. I never said the dogs didn’t feel the stim from a e-collar. where did you see me say that? Maybe you should try and put a e-collar on and find your working level the right way.
I said that this dog was put down with out trying other training methods. The positive methods didn’t work so why not try some compulsion. Not knowing the real story. Well maybe you can tell me what the real story is. It seem like you think you know everything.
You said earlier
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Answer by silly!
it is true that some dogs have to be put down for aggression issues. whether it’s aggression to humans, animals, food, etc. aggression can be a deadly thing for dogs. they cannot control it like humans can.
personally, i would try every single training method i could fathom before putting my dog down. aggression can be rehabilitated. however, it depends on how severe it is. i wouldn’t go off of one trainers opinion.
also, there are some people who live with aggressive dogs. these dogs are the ones who are dog aggressive. they just don’t socialize their dog with other dogs. no dog parks, walks are on a leash, etc. there are also ranches and farms where people have aggressive dogs. dogs that’re normally aggressive seem to be the ones that are dog aggressive. that means they don’t like other dogs. so, these dogs can work on farms, etc.
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If it’s an effective training method with proven, long-term benefits, then I would try anything readily available to save my dog from getting put down. Again, the key is long-term. It’s no use to get your dog to obey you one day then lash out at someone else the next day.
Also, while most dogs aren’t born aggressive, some can inherit aggressive tendencies…it can be genetic and may never be fully corrected. You would also need to have the dog checked out for possible thyroid problems, etc.
I do agree that sometimes dogs need to be corrected. I don’t believe in severe punishment, but a quick correction on a choke chain, a stern “no,” can often be quite effective. Lots of dogs out there are just too strong and stubborn to use purely positive reinforcement. But, it has to be individualized. Some dogs will not respond well to any kind of negative reinforcement and just withdraw or become more rebellious. Training methods must be tailored to fit each individual dog’s situation and personality. Any trainer would have to be pretty arrogant (and naive) to believe that his training method would work on every single dog out there.
You are referring to idiots, not genuine dog lovers. People who love dogs train their dogs, they don’t buy puppies and leave them home alone all day. The people who leave puppies expect them not to eliminate when they are left, they expect them to understand the English language and a variety of inconsistent commands. They also expect them not to roam when they do not provide a fenced garden/yard.
People who train and understand their dogs, would not put a dog down due to lack of training. Idiots do this and because BYB’s provide free and cheap puppies, idiots get puppies without considering their future.
EDIT.
I am going to come back to this question and make a confession. I had a dog who loved people and other dogs. Although he was dominant there were no fights with my other dogs. He went for long walks and played off lead. I have always done obedience training, we went to classes and I did play training in my garden every day.
Although I worked, I took him to work with me when he was a baby and when he was older I took him for long walks with my other dogs before I left for work. I started work at 11 a.m. and worked six days a week, I did this because I wanted to reduce the amount of time that I was away from my dogs, I worked a six hour day. I did not take holidays because I won’t kennel my dogs. Neither he (SAM) or my other dogs were left alone, I paid a lovely man to look after them in my absence.He was an ex RAF dog handler and he came at 12 noon and my dogs were taken for walks in my absence or played in my fenced garden.
When I bought Sam I did not know about BYB’s, this was thirty years ago and they were thin on the ground. Later I discovered that I had bought Sam from a BYB or a puppy farm. Sam slept in the house and when I had visitors and he welcomed them.
Then he began to change, there was a friend who had been a visitor to my house and we met him on a walk. Sam was on a lead however he lunged at his throat, I was devastated. Later I had visitors Sam greeted him then laid on his back in submission, when my visitor tickled Sam’s tummy Sam jumped on the visitor and pinned him down with his mouth around my friends throat he was a BIG dog.
People have mental problems and they are often confined to mental institutions for the rest of their lives. Dogs and other animals are also born with mental problems. The fact remains that idiots don’t try to train their dogs, they confuse them and eventually dump them. I perceived with Sam for a long time, then I realised that he had an incurable mental problem. The vets were horrified that I had kept a pet with mental problems, eventually Sam was PTS when he was just seven year old and I am still devastated.
You don’t have to use aggressive training methods to change a dogs behaviour, nor e-collars…..the problem with many reactive dogs is not in their training but the lack of training and mainly in the family that the dog lives in….as in their lack of understanding of normal dog behaviour, lack of pack leadership which makes a dog anxious and takes over the vacant job the owner is not prepared to do.
I deal with reactive dogs daily and often have them refered to me from vets, dog wardens and other trainers,behaviourists….many of these poor misunderstood, confused dogs have been given so many different methods of ‘training’ that they have no idea what is correct behaviour or not and you can take a dog who is deemed as ‘untrainable’ or ‘aggressive’ and by being consistent in using one understandable method get great results….if the owner is not prepared to continue then the dog will just revert to what it did before as it is in the wrong pack situation with the wrong owner/handler………….I use several methods to achieve, but reactiveness ( what you call aggression) can be controlled as you say and given time and the correct training stopped…………….it is the owners who need most of the work…dogs ar willing to change, people generally are not……………………
There is a difference between reactive behavior and definite aggressive behavior. The first can usually be handled, but the second is unpredictable and a danger to it’s owner regardless of training.
I think the thing you don’t seem to understand is using aggression in training to treat aggression begets more aggression. Using an e-collar on a dog that already has aggressive issues is probably a death sentence to that dog as to rehabilitation. There are dogs out there that are simply an accident waiting to happen, and when a trainer takes on an aggressive do for rehab, that dog is usually only rehabilitated to that trainer and not to the original owner, making it a lawsuit waiting to happen.
I’ve been in the dog training business for many years and have seen training methods go from heavy corrections to no correction at all. There is a happy medium that works with any dog that doesn’t have a bad behavior problem. Knowledgeable trainers, with many years of experience have learned the danger of using adversives with dogs that are already in an aggressive state, and a trainer that tells an owner the dog should be put down knows the dangers of someone living with a dog that has aggression problems, without a true knowledge of dog behavior. I can not bring myself to use “pain” training, so I only train and show shelties and collies that need no adversives and love the training and showing. I’ve seen what happens to dogs that have been trained with e-collars, prong collars, and I don’t like what I’ve seen.
See it this way.
Why put any effort in training (yourself) and your dog. And spend ages in trying to fix something that isnt going to go away (in their opinion).
If you can get a brand new pup from a shelter/breeder to play with and try all over again?
Really the answer is as simple (and sad) as that.
First off, are you a trainer? If so, you could have stepped in any time with this person and offered to help them. If they truly loved their dog, they may have gone for it. Desperate people do all kinds of things to save what they love. I have seen that many times. I know people with dogs who have stepped from positive only to pure compulsion in their attempts to fix their dogs. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t, so what you suggest is not a cure all for behavior issues in dogs.
If you are not a trainer, it is rather arrogant of you to assume that all those other trainers were wrong and that the dog could be fixed.
But then again, you did state at the bottom that the dog may have ended up only being “controlled”.
Most dog owners don’t want a dog who has to be “controlled” to not be dangerous. I am one of those owners. If I have to be on my guard 100% of the time and have to “control” my dog with a tool, what kind of life is that for me or my dog? Not one I would want.
I am the owner of a formerly human aggressive dog. When our newly adopted dog bit three people, one badly, we tried many things to help her, because we are not quitters. Ironically enough, the compulsion trainer was repeatedly attacked whenever he used corrections, so we ended up going a different route. The worst correction she has ever gotten from me is a tug on the check chain that she no longer has to wear. Our dog no longer bites people, and I can relax when I take her out, even to the vet or the groomer.
Don’t think for a second that if I had to “control” her aggression for the rest of her life that I wouldn’t have put her down in a flash. A miserable life for her and me is not what I want in my house pet.
And just for the record, I do believe in some corrections. I use them when they are needed, I don’t use them when they are clearly not needed. And I am patient enough to know the difference.
I have never seen success using an e-collar for aggression, and none of the compulsion trainers I know will do it except for the idiot down the block who ruins more dogs than I can count.
ETA: You are under a misconception if you think an e-collar causes no pain. The only time it would not cause pain is if it is on tone only. There are different levels of pain, but pain it is, no matter how much you protest. Just like there are levels of pain with a prong, depending on how hard you correct.
I am not disagreeing with the use of e-collars in SOME situations, but you need to call a spade a spade and not dance around what it is.
ETA: You know, at the risk of sounding like an idiot, I say at this point, put it on yourself and tell me you don’t feel pain. What is it with some humans that think just because it is a dog that the pain is not for real? Just because you have a video showing dogs using the collars doesn’t mean they don’t feel it. Sorry, but YOU are wrong. If they didn’t feel it, the collar would not be a successful training tool, for heaven’s sake. Ask a good compulsion trainer. Do you know any? I do.
That being said, we are back to you not knowing the real story here, and thinking you know more than, how many trainers did you say they went through?
And obviously you have never had to “control” a dog aggressive dog, because if you had, you would know that even with training, you NEVER let your guard down. EVER. That is the mark of a responsible dog owner-someone who knows what their dog may be capable of and takes steps to ensure that never happens. I think you need to have some conversations with owners who actually have dog aggressive dogs and ask them what they do-do they train it out, or do they “control” it?
I work in rescue also. I foster also. I have many friends who work in rescue and foster, with many different breeds and mutts. None of us, not being trainers, are arrogant enough to tell someone we can “fix” their dog aggressive dog, or that we even know if the dog can be fixed or not. We all leave that to the people who know and can-trainers.
I think you need to let it go-their dog, their decision, and really none of your business.